Rockie is the Chief Strategy Officer at SoundStack. — this interview has been lightly edited for style and readability
Rockie Thomas: Soundstack is wa full stack audio and service provider. We focus on everything from linear streaming to podcast creators. We provide hosting, analytics, ad tech, distribution - we even have our own content management solution for podcasters. We love all audio.
I started out with Soundstack in 2018. Prior to that, I was one of the first employees at AdsWizz. I’ve been in this industry since 1998. My first experience with streaming was streaming some local radio stations on Mark Cuban’s company back in the day - it made me learn how to hate the Real Media codec!
I have a music degree, so working in the audio industry just really speaks to me - it’s great when you’re one of your passions is also a career for you. And I love how much it changes. I know it drives a lot of people crazy, but it is constantly iterating, which makes it really exciting.
Sam Sethi: You also worked with the IAB in the early days as well.
RT: Yes, I started out with the audio committee. I’m a big fan of creating standards in the industry - when we all speak the same language and nomenclature, it just makes it a lot easier for people to buy, and to understand what’s going on and how we could develop this industry. Sarah Van Mosel and I decided to approach the IAB to start podcasting committees. I worked with the Tech Lab, and after two years, a lot of great discussion between a lot of the people are still in there, we finally came to a consensus of our first standard: and wow, it was tough. We all were measuring everything just slightly differently, and everyone had a really good reason of why they were doing it this way.
The major reason we started those download measurement standards at the IAB Tech Labs is so we can count ads that are embedded within the download. I thought it would be a short-term agreement, because of dynamically inserted ads, but fast forward about ten years, and we are still talking about it.
There are a lot of challenges within audio. It’s pretty independent still, even on the streaming side: we have a lot of different ways to approach problems. There are so many inherent challenges that IAB are trying to overcome. Then you add layers of programmatic, and that makes it even more challenging.
What is interesting though, is that we’re seeing that we’re very similar to CTV. When you have similarities to another part of the industry, it makes it easier for buyers to understand the nomenclature that we talk about - and their challenges are sometimes ours, too.
SS: We have more listeners, and more engagement, but podcasting still has a tiny, tiny share of advertising budgets. What can we do to change?
RT: You’re right. It’s shocking. Podcasting is the most popular and one of the most consumed “under-bought modern medias” I’ve ever run across. And it’s really frustrating.
I think it’s too hard to buy at scale for large brands. Today we’re getting bought because we’re getting the extra 10% buys that are happening at the buy level. We’re not actually part of sales planning right now. That’s just not podcasting, that’s digital audio as well. We’re never going to get more than our 5% - 10% “afterthought” until we are part of the media plans at initial planning time, when they’re looking at their year-long strategy. Right now, we’re working with partnerships which will probably come out in the next couple of months of how to get our measurement data into those platforms. It’s really hard to be “swivel-chairing”, I call it, between a whole bunch of different platforms for a very large media spend. So really my goal this year is to figure out how we can get measurement of podcasts into the planning tools that buyers are using today.
SS: How can we get the metrics that the buyers want?
RT: I look at the buy industry for podcasts in two different buckets. So the buyers that are going to be buying at scale, are typically transacting programmatically, executing an insertion order. That’s going to be fueled by dynamic ad insertion.
But, I am still a huge fan of personal endorsements or live reads. It really does work, because you’re able to really craft that creative.
At first, I sold radio in my career. Back then, all you had was Yellow Pages to find clients. My shtick was that I would interview every on-air prime-time on-air talent, find out where they ate, slept, lived. And then I would go to those places and get the talent to do personal endorsements. When they’re already passionate about the brand, it’s crazy. I think there’s great opportunities there for podcasters.
SS: Do you see in 2025 publishers adding more ads per podcast, approaching with the saturation of radio advertising?
RT: I do. And I wish they wouldn’t. I think we’re doing a disservice when you keep on adding more spots to an ad break. What happens is, and I’m noticing it more myself, is that it impacts how people are going to want to listen. When they know that you have a two minute spot break, they’re going to take out their phone, and they’re going to skip - versus having a much shorter spot break. I’m a big fan of a 15 second ad. I know that’s really tight, but I find that we have an ADHD transactional brain nowadays, and I think that people really like to have concise messaging. And I think we have to be about that.
That’s one of my biggest challenges with some endorsement or live reads is they don’t hold tight to a clock when they’re doing their reads. And I’ve heard two minute Casper ads! The beautiful thing about live reads is they’re not supposed to burn out on creative, but they’re starting to burn out. And that’s where I think it’s an opportunity to, to mix up the creative, have a different challenge, find out the first demo, the second demo, the tertiary demo, make sure that you’re making a message towards that just because at the end of the day, it increases your outcome, which is going to increase the ability for you to get bought again.
There’s more of this interview in the Podnews Weekly Review.