Jon is joint founder and Managing Director of Avalon Entertainment — this interview has been lightly edited for style and readability
Avalon is a talent management, television production and live promotion group. We asked for this interview because we noticed that comedian Frank Skinner, a former Absolute Radio presenter, had re-started his podcast after leaving Absolute Radio - but retained Absolute’s RSS feed. We asked how that happened.
Jon Thoday: We have an agreement with Absolute Radio that we can take the feed with us. And obviously, anybody who knows anything about podcasting knows that ideally you have your own feed, and it follows you. I think it’s best to have podcasts owned by the podcaster. You need to own the feed. It’s not really any more complicated than that. At Avalon, we produce podcasts, and we also represent podcasts, and we’ve been doing it since David Baddiel and Frank Skinner did a podcast for the World Cup in 2006 - before people knew what podcasts were. So we’ve been doing it for quite a long time. And, of course (2007’s) The Bugle, which was John Oliver and Andy Zaltzman back then, which was originally funded by The Times.
JC: How important is podcasting for the kind of shows that Avalon has?
JT: We came across podcasts in 2005, when Keith Blackmore, who was then Sports Editor of the Times (who went on to be the deputy editor), called me and said: “We’ve heard of this thing called a podcast” - which to be frank, I hadn’t heard of. I think at that time, Ricky Gervais might have been doing one with The Guardian. That was how we got involved with podcasts. So because we work closely with talent, we tend to get involved in all sorts of media. So if a comedian wants to do a TV show, we’re often involved with it, producing it or representing the artist. Podcasting for me has a big parallel with stand up comedy, because the thing about standup is essentially it’s a comedian and a microphone - that is not much different to a podcast. So it doesn’t have the cost of making a TV show or film or theatre play or anything like that. It’s got a low barrier to entry.
JC: Are podcasts going to be more important for Avalon going forward?
JT: If people that we work with want to do podcasts, they will be important - and I’m hoping that the podcasts will continue to grow. So WTF with Marc Maron in the US, we represent that, so we have quite a lot of global podcasts that we work with or produce.
JC: So what do you tell the people that you represent - I’m trying hard not to use the word talent because I’ve been told we’re not allowed to use it anymore…
JT: They are talent! I don’t know why you aren’t allowed to use it! Who said you can’t say “talent”?
JC: The boss of the BBC, Tim Davie.
JT: Yeah, well, Tim Davie is wrong. I don’t know what he’s talking about. The idea that the BBC can change what people call talent. It’s such rubbish!
JC: OK, well, what should “talent” be aware of when they’re signing a contract for a podcast?
JT: It depends on whose idea it is, is the answer to the question. We manage Matt Forde, who does British Scandal for Wondery - it’s a great podcast. Obviously it pre-existed, and is very successful in America, very successful here. In that kind of situation, you’re thinking more about what’s the fee, and does the artist want to do it and will it be good for them?
But if the artist had thought of it - or the talent, let’s call them the talent - then it’s a case of trying to make sure that you’re on the best platforms, and you continue to have creative control. That is actually the whole point of a podcast - the freedom of the creator, whether it be length, content, etc. If it’s your idea and you own it, try and make sure you retain as much of it as possible.
JC: So, lots of podcasts also going in to video now. I was in LA last week with the launch of Spotify’s video offer. What are your thoughts on podcasting and video?
JT: I think it’s a way of increasing the monetization for people that are trying to monetize. Personally, I think podcasts are an audio product. I’m less convinced. I think television requires other sorts of production values. But that’s a personal view. There are reasons to do podcast on video. But I think with regard to Spotify, they’ve got something right, which is that YouTube underpay the talent. Their ad revenue CPM is too low, so if Spotify can make their streaming platform work, it’s got a big advantage for people rather than YouTube.
JC: I think the devil is in the detail. I’ve just got two other questions. I’m just curious how podcasting looks from your world. Is it a tiny part of your world? And if it is, if it wants to grow, what’s your advice to the industry?
JT: Don’t ruin it with programmatic ads, is my advice to the industry.
JC: How do they ruin it?
JT: I personally think that one of the great things about podcasts is the host reads. Marc Maron only does baked-in reads. It’s very user friendly, and I think if podcasts become ultimately monetized like radio, you’re just going to end up with more and more advertising in it, and a lower and lower CPM. And I think that potentially damages the user experience. And I think that the reason the podcast works is a sort of relationship between the listener and the host, which is different to radio. Particularly in America, the amount of spots for advertising will inevitably go up and up and up, and the way the advertising sold is often a smooth operation by the platform, which isn’t in the spirit of original podcasting. It was originally there monetized through host reads to give an opportunity for creative talent to kind of do the thing they like to do, and maybe people will like it or maybe they won’t. I think that’s what’s exciting about podcasts, is the uncurated nature of it and how easy it is for a podcaster to do it. A lot fail, a lot succeed. And I think that’s what’s great about podcasting. I’m a huge fan of stand up comedy, the Edinburgh Festival. Podcasting, to some extent, writing novels, - all of which are things which are pure creative items, with relatively little curation. That is what can lead to the most exciting work.
JC: One final question. You did the first arena comedy show with Newman and Baddiel. Shagged, Married, Annoyed have also done live shows. How important are live shows to the podcasting world? We’re seeing more of them happen, particularly in the US. Are you organizing more of them for some of the talent that you work with?
JT: We do lots of live stand up, and now we do lots of live podcasts as well. There is a kind of hybrid between the two. If you can do a good show with a podcast, I think you need to think about what your live performance is, to make sure that the user experience is good, and people will come back the next time. So when Chris and Rosie (of Shagged, Married, Annoyed) get ready to do a live show, they put a lot of work into that. There’s the development phase that you need to go through, and it’s certainly exciting that somebody could do a podcast, get successful, and then be able to play small, medium, big arena sized venues without having to have a hit television show first.
We’re massive fans of podcasting, and I think it’s a great new media and relatively new medium, particularly when the hands of people on radio are so tied by all sorts of history - to be able to have the freedom of podcasting is something we should all cherish.
JC: Jon, thank you. I appreciate it.
JT: My pleasure.