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Heather Osgood

Heather Osgood

· Time to read: ~10 min

Heather is CEO and founder of True Native Media — this interview has been lightly edited for style and readability

Heather Osgood: True Native Media is a podcast representation agency. We currently work with about 200 podcasters, and our role is to connect them with advertisers.

James Cridland: Now, True Native Media started on January 2nd, 2016, so the company is nearly 10 years old, and I’m curious how the industry has changed over the last 10 years, Heather - or, at least, where it’s seen real improvement?

HO: I believe the real improvement is dynamic ad insertion. When I started in the industry, it seemed very strange to me that we were doing embedded ad reads. There certainly is a case to be made for the value of embedded ad reads for the advertiser, but the downside of all of that is that we’re not monetizing all of the impressions. And when you compare podcasting to any other form of advertising that’s within the digital space, you really are doing impression-based buying. The fact that, when I started in the industry, we were essentially leaving, 80% of the available impressions on the table and not monetizing those was, you know, kind of just crazy to me.

JC: So you work a lot with host-read ads, so ads that I would end up reading on my podcast. But those can work just as well with dynamic ad insertion, right?

HO: Absolutely. I think that that still can be something that’s confusing to people is that when we talk about dynamic ad insertion, you can dynamically insert any audio file that you want into your podcast. It could be a promo for a show. It could be a promo for a product. And it certainly can be a host-read ad. And it can also be, you know, an announcer-read ad that is programmatically inserted into your show as well. But host-read ads can very effectively be dynamically inserted into podcasts.

JC: What surprised you the most about how the industry has changed in 10 years?

HO: Absolutely the move to video. So, in the last eighteen months, we have been talking so much about how podcasts are being consumed in video. People are getting their podcasts on YouTube. Spotify is putting so much energy into video.

I really am such an audio purist. And I believe in the value of audio. And I understand why there’s been a convergence between audio and video - and I absolutely believe in the power of video - but I am very surprised that as an industry we aren’t creating more of that distinction between audio and video, and to double down on the value of pure audio.

JC: It’s nice to hear you say that. I’m wondering whether the rise of YouTube and Spotify video has changed your business a lot. I guess if you specialize in host-read ads, I guess it kind of hasn’t, right?

HO: It really hasn’t. I think that the biggest change for us has been with our creators because all of our creators are now coming to us and saying, should I move to video, should I be doing video, Spotify’s telling me I should be on video, is that something I should do? I think that there is a bit of a frenzied air to what is happening with creators.

But from an advertising perspective, it really hasn’t changed at all. Most advertisers are still very much interested in reaching the audio. Now, of course, we have really strong podcasts that have simulcasts and they have video and audio. There’s a lot of power in that as well. Our advertisers are excited to be able to take advantage of that opportunity.

I would also say that we are much more looking at our podcasters now as content creators. So we want to say, do they have a podcast? Do they have a newsletter? Do they have strong social? And maybe do they have video? Can we package that together? How can we sell that? And I really do think that as we’re looking to grow, that that’s the direction we’re going to grow in. But audio still can be very powerful - and advertisers are still looking to buy on just audio in many, many cases.

JC: Max Cutler says that PAVE Studios don’t make podcasts anymore - they make shows. Is that good for the podcast industry? Where does the podcast industry go if all of a sudden we’re making YouTube videos like everybody else?

HO: I don’t think that it’s good for the podcast industry. I do think it’s good for the content creator. We’re constantly as an industry crying the blues about the fact that audio does not get the same amount of attention from ad dollars as other mediums do. Radio has always been kind of the underdog when it comes to TV; and podcasting has been the underdog too. I think that what we’re doing as an industry right now is we’re saying we’re really not that valid: we need all these other components to be something more substantial. I don’t think it’s a positive for the industry. I think that we need to continue to be an audio industry.

Now, you can be a solid content creator and you can monetize, as I mentioned, across all of those different platforms. And there’s nothing wrong with that. But if we want to continue the podcast industry, I think it’s really important for us to make sure that audio plays a big role in that. And for me, it gets down to, you know, just the engagement that happens in audio is so significantly different than other platforms.

People do not spend as much time with video as they do with audio. We are diminishing the value of audio and we’re diminishing the value of the engagement that happens with that audience that enjoys consuming audio content.

JC: So, podcasting is audio-first, I guess, but that doesn’t mean audio-only, would that be right?

HO: For sure. That’s exactly how I feel.

JC: So, are the conversations that you’re having with advertisers and ad buyers today very different to how they were 10 years ago? I’m imagining that people understand what podcasts are for a start. But are they all asking for video now?

HO: They are not asking for video, no. The conversations are very different.

So, as you mentioned, when I started 10 years ago, literally, especially when I called brands direct, people didn’t know what podcasts were. Now there is the desire, especially with brands direct, for these companies to buy audio. They want to understand podcasts, they hear the buzz that it works really well, they want to come and see what it’s all about. The conversation has changed drastically in that people really want to buy podcasts.

I would say 9 out of 10 agencies that we talk to are looking for audio primarily. And if we have video, they’re happy to add that on top, these other elements, but they really still are very much searching for audio.

JC: In terms of a podcaster, if I’m making a show, what can I do better to help sell ads in that show?

HO: The number one thing is you have to really want advertisers in your show, and you have to want to partner with advertisers. Often, I see that creators are almost apologetic for having ads in their show. And that is not helpful for anyone - not helpful for your audience - not helpful for the advertiser.

If you really want to capitalize on ad dollars in your show, you really need to come to the table with the message that you’ve curated brands for your audience: that you have selected advertisers that are going to benefit you to benefit you to benefit the audience, and that you’re going to do really great ad reads for those advertisers. You’re going to encourage your audience to purchase those products because ultimately, at the end of the day, advertisers want to advertise on your show because they’re going to see a return on their investment. And going into a partnership knowing that you want to support that brand as well as support your audience is really important. And often, that does not happen.

JC: What makes a really good ad read for you?

HO: It’s all about authenticity. If somebody actually really likes the product and they’re able to convey that in a compelling way to their audience, the audience is actually going to listen to the ad. And for me, that’s the most important part of all of it. If I’m not listening to the ad because it’s not engaging, then I’m going to fast forward and then we’re not going to get good results.

So, if you can find products that you genuinely like as a host and you feel would benefit your audience, then you’re going to do a really nice authentic ad read. It’s going to be engaging. Your audience is going to listen. They’re going to purchase the product and it’s all going to work. So, that’s important for me.

JC: The amount of advertising has, though, dramatically increased. Magellan AI, I think, said that the amount of advertising in podcasts has increased 22% year on year. Is that a concern? Should we be worried about that?

HO: I don’t think so. The reality is that when you compare podcasts to any other medium, the content-to-ad ratio is quite low.

I find that one of the factors that we don’t take into consideration is the top 1%. So, there’s so much conversation around the idea that if you advertise on the top 1%, you’re going to reach the majority of podcasters. But also, there are lots of ads on that top 1%.

So, if you’re going to listen to a Joe Rogan or a Tim Ferriss or, you know, some of the Diary of a CEO, some of these really large podcasts, they have lots of ads. And that, I think, can turn listeners off in some ways, right? Like, when you’ve got six ads back-to-back, it’s going to be a lot to get through. But the majority of podcasts do not have too many ads.

I also think that the reality is that most podcasts have a subscription ad-free feed. And if listeners don’t like ads, they are welcome to subscribe to the podcast. And many people do, right? We know that there is a lot that’s made in subscription fees. So, I don’t think that we should be concerned.

JC: Now, you run your own podcast. It’s called The Podcast Advertising Playbook. And that has just hit 200 episodes. Episode 1 in July 2019. What was the thinking back then of you doing a podcast?

HO: I started the show because I wanted to have conversations with successful podcast advertisers. So, at that point in 2019, my goal was to continue to grow True Native Media, which we have done successfully now for so many years. But I wanted to get in front of those companies like MailChimp and Casper Mattresses and, you know, those advertisers that had just seen so much success. So, my thought was that if I started the show, I could interview them and find out what their secrets really were and share those secrets with other brands that were looking to create success with their podcast ad campaigns.

JC: I’m curious, because there’s a few senior executives of podcast companies that I can think of. Dan Granger, Maya Prohovnik, of course, from Spotify, Todd Cochrane, Rob Walch, who do podcasts. But there are lots of senior executives of podcast companies who don’t. I’m curious as to why more senior executives of podcast companies don’t do podcasts for themselves. Have you any thoughts on that?

HO: I really have absolutely loved doing the podcast. It has given me the opportunity to interview so many people, not only brands that are advertising, but so many players within the industry. And talk to senior leaders within organizations that I wouldn’t, frankly, have had the opportunity to have a candid conversation with.

It’s opened up so many doors for me personally, not to mention really just been a pleasure to create content that I feel has been very helpful for the industry and has helped the industry grow. I think that more executives should have podcasts.

JC: Congratulations on hitting episode 200. Heather, thanks so much for your time.

HO: Thanks for having me, James.

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